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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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yuria hosts Richard Saunders and Stefan

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psycho hello Richard a steppin I can't

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believe I'm actually here that can't be

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Hillston park RSL club in the quarantine

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holding doc about to go into the tank we

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are in a little while you're recording

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the think tank great to see you here and

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our favorite club down the end of the

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street as we like to say that I even let

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me in as well which is amazing think

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that was a mistake but never mind this

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is episode number 175 of the skeptic

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zone for the 20 and Counting for the

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25th off februari 2012 ponyta the last

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year of existence make the most of it we

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certainly are here we are in fact the

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other the other members of the skeptics

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owner gathering as we speak they are

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vigorously gathering there is a

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gatherers together including me no no no

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no it's great to be here if anyone's

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wondering jee main and what you do when

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you're not doing a skeptic zone check

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out the mr and ms leather australia

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competition which i co-hosted last

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sunday night at the oxford hotel it's

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not for the squeamish but i was there my

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hunter s thompson outfit so when i'm not

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the skipped exam that's kind of how it's

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been my time they would've been awesome

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right it was pretty good but look I tell

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you what's coming up on this show is a

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bit wild of the what I saw how something

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so what is coming up on the show me well

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I'm glad you asked if I'm glad you asked

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in fact that would kick off the show we

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have a Maynard and I rants again oh I'm

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not talking about Schrodinger's

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Schrodinger's cat that's not the one

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where you put the peanut butter toast

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strap it to the back and it's keeps

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spinning is it is that the cat yeah I

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don't think so it's to do with a dead

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cat litter BOTS other they kept the box

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that's right yes yes find out more one

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playing order on interviews no no

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Wednesday night interviews Iran people

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basically we did something on the dirty

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disbelievers which we got our straw our

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astrology friend under got it wrong and

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got it wrong and I ran rang me up and

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anyway already insured time to revisit

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time to revisit and after that the rest

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of the show is devoted to what promises

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to be a very interesting think tank

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because the whole gang are here hello

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skeptics that the local skeptics are in

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the crew not so not luma not an hour

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overseas correspondence I penny Chan and

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travis roy but everybody else in the

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skeptic zone is in the same room same

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time big one it's gonna be a big so

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that's yourself Boehner dr. Reggie Joe

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Benna mu and Imran sir given myself

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we're going to be talking about

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celebrities we're going to be talking

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about friends of science and medicine

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pothole of 54 in these wonderful YouTube

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videos and the Australian vaccination

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network it's all happening I think we

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should just get straight on with it

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because it is going to be a very huge

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show yeah I've got a photo a new none i

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want to show you from last sunday so you

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better run the show all of this will

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look at your photographs of the noon on

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Maynard and while we run to the bar and

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have another I don't have another drink

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will let everybody enjoy the skeptic

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the new south wales Supreme Court has

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ruled it's not within the jurisdiction

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of the health care Complaints Commission

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to issue public warnings against a

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prominent anti-vaccination group in July

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2010 the H Triple C issued a warning

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that the Australian vaccination network

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provided inaccurate and misleading

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information against vaccination it also

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accused the network of selectively

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quoting research out of context the

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network took the H Triple C to the

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supreme court to challenge the public

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warning today's decision said nothing

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about the accuracy of the information on

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the network's website the court did not

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overturn the new south wales

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government's decision to cancel the

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vaccination networks charity status well

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folks as you probably know by now the in

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the case of the Australian vaccination

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Network versus the HH Triple C the

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judgment was for the Australian

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vaccination network so not a good day

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for science and reason and medicine

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today sitting with me here in our little

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post-mortem in a little cafe we've just

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come out of the judge or the court case

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here's Peter ratbag without inch Peter

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yes morning no not there I say good

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morning good morning no that's good

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morning in the polite Senate rather than

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good morning individual sales not the

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result I was expecting I must say I

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thought that the case was all about

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H Triple C having jurisdiction to see

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these people providing health care and

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the judge didn't see that way it looks

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like we won't know we read the full

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judgement which will must be available

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zoom on the Supreme Court website later

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today it looks like she picked up the

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fact that the legislation specifically

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states he'd use the word individual it

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looks like she is interpreting the law

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of the legislation to moon but you have

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to be an affected individual before you

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can make a complaint about a health care

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provider and the people who made the

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complaints were affected by yeah the

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words of the Australian vaccination

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deadly so they'd say what you're saying

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is that because they had no grounds to

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make legal complaint here for the ACE

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Triple C had no grounds on which to do

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anything about go there it certainly

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appeared to me as though it was one a

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classic case of a legal technicality

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that's right a [\h__\h] she did say in the

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discussion on Wednesday that she felt

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that it was a legislative forum and it's

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looking for yeah but we don't the job is

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to hit her job is to this twit the law

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as it stands I agree she couldn't just

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make up her own laws and say well but in

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this case I think this see her she can't

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she had to stick to the letter of the

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law yes I'll get feed her actual

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judgment later today and read it I would

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almost bet money on that's what she's

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saying all right the important message

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of course is that what the Australian

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vaccination network are doing is still

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wrong regardless of whatever ruling was

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made today about jurisdiction about one

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legal body or another and that we are

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not going to

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to stop our fight and letting people

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know that these people are anti vats and

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equipment that it's if we know what

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we've had a case here where it's been

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said that no action taken by a

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government department because there is

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still the other couple of Department the

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office of lipid gaming and raising that

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withdrawing the charity status now I

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think any idea that because the OLZ and

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I mentioned the H Triple C ruling and

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their warnings I think it was assumed

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that if this was overturned that the OLG

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and I would have to restore the charity

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status but i hope you what I syndrome

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from the routing of it is that our jury

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an hour simply added that to the pile

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they took action on the basis of

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accounting poor terrible collections

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wasn't done correctly and that hasn't

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gone away yes I ok so there are more

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things looming of course for the

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vaccination network look it is not as we

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said it's not the result I was expecting

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personally but then again I mean that's

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why she's the judge and I don't know the

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Lord and she does and we'll leave it at

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that because we're all just sort of

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twittering and going to have this have a

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coffee at the moment and think about

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this more but Meryl we're not giving up

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here's my not spooky action at the

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well here we get a favor to crank mail

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and we've got some crank mail right now

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crank mail great male crank from none

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other than the president of the

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Australian skeptics Iran said oh have

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you around I'm very good man out you

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picked a problem with this show dirty

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disbelievers when it was on over January

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in fact you said your email we are wrong

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wrong wrong it's wrong I believe is what

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you wrote something along those lines

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here make a few more words choice words

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to now what we were looking at was the

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thought experiment of Schrodinger's cat

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and we explained the thought experiment

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of Schrodinger's cat Schrodinger's cat

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is a hypothetical experiment in which we

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put a cat inside a box with some

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equipment which releases poisonous gas

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after say an hour you wouldn't know

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whether the cat is dead or alive as this

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can be known only by looking inside the

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box this is based on the assumption of

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probability and not the fact fact comes

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when we actually see inside the box till

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then it's all a guess confused so was

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the cat we got it wrong what do we get

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wrong well he was referred to as being

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not knowing until we observe kind of

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experiment then of course not knowing

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not knowing what the truth is until you

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actually observe it is sort of a truism

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you know it's yeah it's true but it's

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not it's not such a revelation and it's

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definitely not what Schrodinger's cats

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thought experiment was meant to show so

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because the quantum state of the item is

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not known we don't know whether cat is

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dead / dead or alive so that that's

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basically the the essence of

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Schrodinger's cat expert thought

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experiment but I would maybe like to say

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a few words about the whole idea of what

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he means when we don't know about this

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the quantum state of the atom you think

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that New Age people sometime

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misinterpret the whole state of quantum

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knowing and not knowing absolutely and

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maybe I could say a few words about

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first of all quantum mechanics is very

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complex Richard Feynman Nobel laureate

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for his contributions to quantum

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mechanics once said I think I can safely

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say that nobody understands quantum

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mechanics each

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mean that we don't know how it works or

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that we don't know that it works because

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we definitely do it just remained it

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understand in the everyday sense of

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understanding as in feeling that we know

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what's happening in a sense a bit like

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knowing what we do understand why an

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Apple falls down from a tree and doesn't

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fall away at an angle so what he was

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saying is it's not intuitive basically

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what he was saying was basing intuition

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was not designed to take care of these

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things so you see the thing is we

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evolved to deal with the scales at our

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middle world you know middle size you

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know we're not too small not too large

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not too slow not too fast but we're not

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equipped to deal with those situations

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where things are very different it's not

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just about quantum mechanics for example

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in relativity when it deals with

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situations where things travel very very

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fast very close to the speed of light in

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really weird things happen then you know

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things grow larger and they grow heavier

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and there's all kinds of things that

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happen we and we don't understand it it

273
00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:22,780
seems counterintuitive because we do not

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travel at close to the speed of light

275
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and it's the same thing with quantum

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quantum mechanics it quantum mechanics

277
00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:29,860
deals with scales of up to a few atoms

278
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and all the way down to subatomic

279
00:11:35,490 --> 00:11:34,030
particles while classical mechanics

280
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deals with objects that are much larger

281
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:37,840
you know humans and planets and all of

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those things how does us knowing or not

283
00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:42,910
knowing is that different from opening

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the box and looking I want to explain

285
00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:46,960
what's weird about quantum mechanics

286
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quantum mechanics is a probabilistic

287
00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:50,560
world I'll give you an analogy let's say

288
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that your car has a certain probability

289
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:55,120
of being blue and another probability of

290
00:11:59,700 --> 00:11:58,000
being read we can't be sure until we

291
00:12:01,470 --> 00:11:59,710
measure the color of your car and

292
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measure is the word that scientists use

293
00:12:07,710 --> 00:12:05,710
to indicate a careful observation so we

294
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can't know that doesn't sound so weird

295
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:09,280
the thing that's weird about quantum

296
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mechanics is that not only can we not be

297
00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:14,650
sure until we observe there is actually

298
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not a specific color until we observe in

299
00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:20,440
a sense you could say that the car is

300
00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:24,700
both blue and red until we observe so

301
00:12:29,580 --> 00:12:26,910
until we observe there is only a

302
00:12:31,230 --> 00:12:29,590
probability of the car being red and a

303
00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:31,240
probability of the car being blue but

304
00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:33,700
there isn't actually a specific color I

305
00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:36,280
ran this would then directly almost play

306
00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:36,670
in

307
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,100
too much new age theory that the future

308
00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:41,440
can be predicted and there is it said

309
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:43,750
this is so this sounds exactly like this

310
00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:45,610
makes a lot of things possible in the

311
00:12:49,830 --> 00:12:47,710
New Age world that's actually what

312
00:12:52,290 --> 00:12:49,840
shouting I was trying to show because

313
00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:52,300
the problem is with the concept of

314
00:12:56,460 --> 00:12:53,560
observation what does observation

315
00:12:58,380 --> 00:12:56,470
actually mean does the observer need to

316
00:13:00,570 --> 00:12:58,390
be The Observer need to be conscious for

317
00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:00,580
example does it need to be a human that

318
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understand what's going on or can it be

319
00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:05,800
a cat or can it be a rock New Age people

320
00:13:09,390 --> 00:13:07,660
for example very often refer to quantum

321
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:09,400
mechanics in and they argue that we

322
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:11,890
create our own reality but the problem

323
00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:13,450
with that is that it implies some

324
00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:16,150
ability to control the outcome or some

325
00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,620
conscious awareness of the subatomic

326
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:19,600
level but that's nonsense that that's

327
00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:21,250
completely wrong that would be one of

328
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:23,020
the theories exposed in what the bleep

329
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:25,270
do we know and I think drew I think drew

330
00:13:28,770 --> 00:13:26,890
barrymore spends a lot of time every

331
00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:28,780
morning imagining what her day is going

332
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:30,520
to be like I think her futures actually

333
00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:31,930
probably more influenced by the fact

334
00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:34,300
that she's the god daughter of Steven

335
00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:36,640
Spielberg that would have a greater

336
00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:38,080
effect on her future than watching

337
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:40,030
thinks in the morning absolutely but you

338
00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:41,650
see what shredding go was trying to show

339
00:13:45,630 --> 00:13:44,080
was basically that we know that the cat

340
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:45,640
is either really either dead or alive

341
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:47,800
and not in some in-between State he

342
00:13:52,050 --> 00:13:49,330
actually says it in the paper where he

343
00:13:54,270 --> 00:13:52,060
wrote it actually says the cat isn't in

344
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:54,280
an in-between State but if we take

345
00:13:58,110 --> 00:13:56,650
quantum mechanics to the extreme then we

346
00:14:00,060 --> 00:13:58,120
could say that it is what he was

347
00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:00,070
basically trying to show is that there

348
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:02,230
is a problem about where does the

349
00:14:07,530 --> 00:14:04,510
microscale the small-scale that which

350
00:14:09,570 --> 00:14:07,540
quantum mechanics applies end and the

351
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:09,580
macro scale at which we can which we can

352
00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:11,770
call an observer end and therefore when

353
00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:14,620
if the cat interacts with the quantum

354
00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:16,630
level then the head will actually be

355
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:18,700
dead or alive the cat will be the

356
00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:21,040
observer the cat will be that observers

357
00:14:26,010 --> 00:14:23,710
that actually changes the atom from

358
00:14:27,390 --> 00:14:26,020
being in both state at the same time by

359
00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:27,400
the way that the word for that is super

360
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:29,980
position it will change it from being in

361
00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:32,170
a superposition of two different states

362
00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:35,380
to the one state basically what we what

363
00:14:39,870 --> 00:14:37,150
we were saying that was incorrect was

364
00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:39,880
what we were probably miss representing

365
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:42,760
or misunderstanding the essence of the

366
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:44,770
experiment it was not to show that we

367
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:46,570
can't know until we tell he was all

368
00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:49,810
about the difference between the state

369
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,529
of super

370
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:52,480
position that exists at the quantum

371
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:55,839
level and the state of of specific

372
00:15:00,600 --> 00:14:58,720
situations specific knowing that exists

373
00:15:02,489 --> 00:15:00,610
at the macro level so where is a good

374
00:15:04,559 --> 00:15:02,499
place to go and read up on this now I

375
00:15:06,269 --> 00:15:04,569
would suggest that Wikipedia would not

376
00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:06,279
be the place to go because it's far too

377
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,529
condensed and a little bit confusing

378
00:15:12,059 --> 00:15:10,240
because of it being condensed where is a

379
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:12,069
good place to go to learn more about

380
00:15:16,499 --> 00:15:13,839
this superposition and things like that

381
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:16,509
give you a website where I found

382
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:18,730
information that I thought was very

383
00:15:27,929 --> 00:15:21,490
useful it was easy to read and the

384
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:27,939
website is WWMT en masse without the

385
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:33,040
nest at the end com / cat dot HTML up we

386
00:15:36,869 --> 00:15:34,720
won't even get started on string theory

387
00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:36,879
will we know I don't think we should

388
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:39,699
president of the Australian skeptics and

389
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:41,410
and a guy who knows what he's talking

390
00:15:59,020 --> 00:15:42,639
about and isn't scared to let you know

391
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:01,720
I'm Eugenie Scott executive director of

392
00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:03,110
the National Center for Science

393
00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:06,110
Education in Oakland California we

394
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:07,910
defend and support the teaching of

395
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:09,710
evolution and climate change when it

396
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:11,600
comes under attack for religious and

397
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:13,730
political reasons we help teachers

398
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:16,160
parents school boards and other citizens

399
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:18,800
defend good science in the schools come

400
00:16:24,910 --> 00:16:22,370
visit us at NCSE calm and on youtube and

401
00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:24,920
facebook and let us know if science

402
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:27,500
comes under attack in your community we

403
00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:38,090
join us now for drinking skeptically in

404
00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:46,470
the think tank I think one of the things

405
00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:48,840
that has taken my attention today folks

406
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:51,840
as we start this think tank is there is

407
00:16:56,950 --> 00:16:54,510
another tank in this very room if we

408
00:17:02,360 --> 00:16:56,960
look over there and it's a tank full of

409
00:17:04,070 --> 00:17:02,370
noms lobsters folks yes in our think

410
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:04,080
tank here at our favorite club down the

411
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:05,280
end of the street and the Chinese

412
00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:07,410
restaurant there is now a giant tank

413
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:10,560
full of giant lobsters ready to go I

414
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:12,000
think next time we'll have to order some

415
00:17:16,070 --> 00:17:14,100
dr. ray Jean I know I don't they look um

416
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:16,080
well I should I feel a bit sorry for

417
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:17,610
them maybe we should just non them but

418
00:17:21,830 --> 00:17:20,610
now their misery conversation with them

419
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:21,840
so don't know that you'd really want to

420
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:23,370
nom them what do you mean have a

421
00:17:28,450 --> 00:17:26,550
conversation with him it's like in The

422
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:28,460
Hitchhiker's Guide let's meet the meet

423
00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:31,530
and it's good to see you meeting us here

424
00:17:40,970 --> 00:17:36,540
Joe Benna me I return nice to be back

425
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:40,980
thank you and a welcome sight indeed

426
00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:44,370
tonight is the happy smiling face of yes

427
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,160
may not hello everybody and I want to

428
00:17:52,490 --> 00:17:49,200
thank on behalf of myself and you and

429
00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:52,500
dr. H E and Jay cats everyone who tuned

430
00:17:57,260 --> 00:17:54,360
in to the do disbelievers downloaded it

431
00:18:01,250 --> 00:17:57,270
and gave us support to the ABC it's got

432
00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:01,260
us absolutely nowhere but the show

433
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,900
hasn't been renewed or anything but you

434
00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:05,760
never know yeah it was great you look it

435
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:07,260
was great fun and if anyone has any

436
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:09,090
power with the ABC we'd love it would

437
00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:11,100
love to do that show all the time it was

438
00:18:15,380 --> 00:18:13,230
it was a real pleasure to go into the

439
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:15,390
studios you know and two out of the

440
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:17,370
three weeks we got studios to work in

441
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:18,370
and everything

442
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:20,410
and we only got kicked out the once and

443
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:22,090
it just it just goes to show what you

444
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:23,890
can do when when someone accidentally

445
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:26,350
puts a tick next to your name I quite

446
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:28,690
like that lat last studio we ended up in

447
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:32,050
was very cozy it was a sports to do but

448
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:33,520
i must thinking about of the ABC and

449
00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:35,050
helping us out with that and an hour

450
00:18:38,610 --> 00:18:36,820
inside man who was great for the whole

451
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:38,620
thing it really wears you everyone for

452
00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:40,330
listening and shooting it's always good

453
00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:42,940
to have somebody on the inside what was

454
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:46,630
that pretty yeah I'm the scottish guy

455
00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:48,730
yeah Thank You Scottish producer Thank

456
00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:50,200
You Scottish producer otherwise known as

457
00:18:56,460 --> 00:18:52,780
the man behind the curtain it was I did

458
00:19:01,650 --> 00:18:56,470
you do it it was it's not a bus

459
00:19:03,780 --> 00:19:01,660
announcement it's somebody who's won the

460
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:03,790
chance to win some money they're having

461
00:19:09,450 --> 00:19:06,610
a raffle or southern here folks here on

462
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:09,460
circuit hello hello Richard back again

463
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:11,730
and it's not us who were winning the

464
00:19:16,049 --> 00:19:14,170
8888 dollars today was and we were

465
00:19:19,290 --> 00:19:16,059
losing roughly that amount I think we

466
00:19:21,299 --> 00:19:19,300
are and never a loser its Stefan Soyka

467
00:19:24,299 --> 00:19:21,309
Richard it's great to be here for a

468
00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:24,309
change in the think tank and I think

469
00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:25,750
it's forgive that other tank they I was

470
00:19:29,669 --> 00:19:27,550
actually wondering if those lobsters are

471
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:29,679
intelligent enough to appreciate that

472
00:19:34,290 --> 00:19:32,290
even though their fate is sealed while

473
00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:34,300
they're waiting in that tank there there

474
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:37,030
it's a lot of stress free life compared

475
00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:38,590
to life in the wild because when they're

476
00:19:41,250 --> 00:19:39,670
out in the wild there's lots of

477
00:19:42,750 --> 00:19:41,260
predators and stuff so that should

478
00:19:45,419 --> 00:19:42,760
actually be quite chilled and relaxed

479
00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:45,429
they're awaiting their fate because

480
00:19:49,169 --> 00:19:46,900
obviously when it comes it's all over

481
00:19:51,419 --> 00:19:49,179
for them but right now they should be

482
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:51,429
very cool Stefan here they can see all

483
00:19:57,299 --> 00:19:55,090
their predators in the neck nature that

484
00:19:59,400 --> 00:19:57,309
you think is well like I very highly

485
00:20:00,720 --> 00:19:59,410
stressed they're looking happy enough to

486
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:00,730
look into pockets there they are they're

487
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:02,559
moving around now look they've heard us

488
00:20:06,909 --> 00:20:04,870
look at that city by our until I think

489
00:20:09,609 --> 00:20:06,919
they're trying to escape

490
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:09,619
happy lobsters well we'll be happily

491
00:20:12,879 --> 00:20:10,970
eating those lobsters maybe in a couple

492
00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:12,889
of weeks I don't know a lot to get

493
00:20:17,950 --> 00:20:16,340
through on tonight's think tank now the

494
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:17,960
strange thing is of course we are

495
00:20:21,609 --> 00:20:20,330
recording this on a Thursday evening not

496
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:21,619
just any Thursday evening its

497
00:20:26,049 --> 00:20:23,840
international Howard Jones day it's his

498
00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:26,059
birthday today yes the man who recorded

499
00:20:29,379 --> 00:20:27,350
what is love things can only get better

500
00:20:31,269 --> 00:20:29,389
and like to get you know you will and is

501
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:31,279
often confused with nik kershaw it's his

502
00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:32,720
birthday today that's probably last

503
00:20:37,749 --> 00:20:33,830
you'll hear from me the think tank

504
00:20:40,989 --> 00:20:37,759
tonight an interesting fact about that

505
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,999
man and he's played here I've seen him

506
00:20:45,070 --> 00:20:43,039
play here at this video at this venue

507
00:20:48,249 --> 00:20:45,080
yeah this menu I came and saw him here

508
00:20:49,930 --> 00:20:48,259
about two years ago it's what and

509
00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:49,940
bringing up the subject of thursday is

510
00:20:53,109 --> 00:20:51,529
that we're recording this on a thursday

511
00:20:57,399 --> 00:20:53,119
night and tomorrow morning friday

512
00:20:59,739 --> 00:20:57,409
morning the decision gets handed down in

513
00:21:02,799 --> 00:20:59,749
the court case the australian

514
00:21:05,649 --> 00:21:02,809
vaccination network vs the H Triple C

515
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:05,659
dr. H E yeah this has been going on for

516
00:21:12,009 --> 00:21:08,960
a while this resulted because the H

517
00:21:14,409 --> 00:21:12,019
Triple C in July 2010 issued a public

518
00:21:17,289 --> 00:21:14,419
warning a public health warning about

519
00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:17,299
the avian because they investigated

520
00:21:20,739 --> 00:21:18,950
their website for over 12 months and

521
00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:20,749
determined that their information was

522
00:21:25,509 --> 00:21:22,940
misleading they cherry-picked research

523
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:25,519
to make vaccines look bad and they were

524
00:21:31,389 --> 00:21:26,960
purely providing anti-vaccination

525
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,399
information now the avian obviously

526
00:21:35,169 --> 00:21:33,679
weren't happy with this so they

527
00:21:37,570 --> 00:21:35,179
challenged this decision in the Supreme

528
00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:37,580
Court and the case has been going on now

529
00:21:44,859 --> 00:21:40,700
for over six months yeah maybe eight

530
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:44,869
months a long time the final hearing was

531
00:21:51,609 --> 00:21:48,799
on Wednesday yesterday where it's now

532
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:51,619
come down to semantics it was the

533
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:53,450
barristers arguing for three and a half

534
00:21:59,619 --> 00:21:55,970
to four hours about the definition of

535
00:22:02,830 --> 00:21:59,629
the term each in section 7 B of the

536
00:22:05,259 --> 00:22:02,840
Public Health Act of 1993 where it

537
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:05,269
states something along the lines of the

538
00:22:10,930 --> 00:22:07,580
clause is something about the

539
00:22:13,570 --> 00:22:10,940
information must demonstrate that it has

540
00:22:16,749 --> 00:22:13,580
harmed somebody or harmed caused harm to

541
00:22:18,940 --> 00:22:16,759
eat right so how do you interpret each

542
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:18,950
is a person in particular like an

543
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:20,240
individual person

544
00:22:26,110 --> 00:22:23,330
is it the public is it an organization

545
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:26,120
so essentially the judge was saying to

546
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:28,610
the barrister for the H Triple C you

547
00:22:32,740 --> 00:22:29,900
need to demonstrate that this

548
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:32,750
information has influenced each whether

549
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:34,850
that be one person's decision to not

550
00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:37,370
vaccinate or a bunch of people's

551
00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:39,080
decisions so it was three and a half

552
00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:40,790
hours of semantics about the meaning of

553
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:43,580
the term each I guess it's like come was

554
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:46,400
it Clinton messaging and in fact it was

555
00:22:51,370 --> 00:22:48,050
the same word they are good about there

556
00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:51,380
was the meaning of it was that yeah okay

557
00:22:55,690 --> 00:22:53,630
well that's what it was yesterday it or

558
00:22:59,500 --> 00:22:55,700
is it was 11 i think it was is with

559
00:23:01,720 --> 00:22:59,510
clinton so anyway the judge who was

560
00:23:02,860 --> 00:23:01,730
presiding yesterday is a new judge in

561
00:23:06,340 --> 00:23:02,870
the Supreme Court she's only just

562
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:06,350
recently been appointed the judge you

563
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:08,570
see they say she so that's not center

564
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:10,670
that was there the first time judge this

565
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:12,890
is a brand-new judge who only came in on

566
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:17,090
Wednesday so the decision will be handed

567
00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:19,910
down tomorrow morning but I wasn't there

568
00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:21,950
but I have information from people who

569
00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:23,870
were one of the things that was

570
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:26,750
interesting is that she picked up on the

571
00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:30,770
the whole idea that the avn perceiving

572
00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:33,020
the judge she been the judge that the

573
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:34,700
ABN pushed that they're pro-choice not

574
00:23:39,549 --> 00:23:37,490
anti-vaccine and she mentioned three

575
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:39,559
times that they sell a t-shirt called

576
00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:41,410
love them protect them never inject them

577
00:23:48,910 --> 00:23:45,320
and at one point she actually said in

578
00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:48,920
court the judge said why are you so coy

579
00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:51,500
or shy about being upfront about what

580
00:23:54,970 --> 00:23:53,780
you do basically saying how come you

581
00:23:58,169 --> 00:23:54,980
don't want to admit that you're

582
00:24:00,640 --> 00:23:58,179
anti-vaccine like what's wrong with that

583
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,650
so she she picked up on that quite a few

584
00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:02,960
times one of the funniest things that

585
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:06,140
happened was that during closing the

586
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:08,690
barrister for the avn asked if meryl's

587
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:10,250
testimony could be struck from the

588
00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:15,020
record if it could be determined to be

589
00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:17,660
inadmissible and the judge just laughed

590
00:24:22,570 --> 00:24:21,260
and said no because one of the things

591
00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:22,580
that's happened throughout the course of

592
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:23,920
these hearings is that Merrill

593
00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:26,450
originally the reason that they

594
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:28,160
originally went into this case was

595
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,890
because Merrill deems that they were not

596
00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:32,880
a health care provider

597
00:24:36,860 --> 00:24:35,040
she said therefore the H Triple C does

598
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:36,870
not have jurisdiction over us they can't

599
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:40,050
make any laws about us right when she

600
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:42,090
was in court under oath she admitted she

601
00:24:47,030 --> 00:24:45,450
was a health care provider so the first

602
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:47,040
one that's the one that I attended she

603
00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:50,250
admitted that it very quickly the first

604
00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:53,040
time around was it now on close to six

605
00:24:59,360 --> 00:24:56,760
months ago they started talking about

606
00:25:01,820 --> 00:24:59,370
some technicalities like this section 7

607
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:01,830
B or whatever under whether the content

608
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:04,740
the way the complaint was dealt with was

609
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:06,330
appropriate it was nothing to do with

610
00:25:10,790 --> 00:25:07,740
being a health care provider or will

611
00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:10,800
being pro-choice or auntie vax was

612
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:12,420
always right from the beginning about

613
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,170
technical legal technicalities I think

614
00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:18,240
that maybe is why her barrister ask her

615
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:19,920
evidence to be struck from the record

616
00:25:24,860 --> 00:25:23,250
because she has said some stuff that has

617
00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:24,870
really put herself in the [\h__\h] as you

618
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:28,470
like to say in Australia but the judge

619
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:30,930
didn't allow that the judge said no that

620
00:25:35,090 --> 00:25:33,690
will not happen so yeah ten o'clock

621
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:35,100
tomorrow morning is when the decision

622
00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:38,220
will be passed down it's very difficult

623
00:25:42,590 --> 00:25:40,230
to know at this point which way it could

624
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:42,600
go I guess by the time this podcast goes

625
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:44,250
out everyone will know the strange thing

626
00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:47,130
is of course at the top of the show near

627
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:49,620
the beginning of that today's show we

628
00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:51,840
know we know yeah we all know unlike all

629
00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:54,630
the others so but as recording we don't

630
00:25:58,610 --> 00:25:56,580
however it is scheduled for tomorrow

631
00:26:00,860 --> 00:25:58,620
morning but also things do get bumped

632
00:26:05,810 --> 00:26:00,870
from the Supreme Court so at this stage

633
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:05,820
is going ahead but it depends yeah yeah

634
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:08,260
what was that that was the lobsters

635
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:10,900
trying to escape I think so enjoyed

636
00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:13,390
mission as a as a thing will will just

637
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:14,950
disappear off the planet no no one will

638
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:20,170
ever have to be vaccine never again the

639
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:21,940
next next step is fluoride in the water

640
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:24,670
and then and then sunblock you know

641
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:26,380
these people are also get rid of the

642
00:26:29,790 --> 00:26:28,510
people who rail against sunblock say

643
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:29,800
it's poison that we're putting on our

644
00:26:32,970 --> 00:26:31,210
skin and everything we got him we got to

645
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:32,980
put our turn our water pipes back in the

646
00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:36,100
lid I think that was something put out

647
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:37,900
by the Cancer Council recently we said

648
00:26:42,150 --> 00:26:40,330
that they would concern that it was to

649
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:42,160
do with people's fear of nanoparticles

650
00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:44,290
in sunscreen the council council are

651
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:47,220
genuinely concerned that some of those

652
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:50,310
scare mongering is actually gaining

653
00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:53,110
traction that there are more and more

654
00:26:56,910 --> 00:26:55,300
people who are concerned about the

655
00:26:59,820 --> 00:26:56,920
health effects of nanoparticles in

656
00:27:02,130 --> 00:26:59,830
sunscreen and are not using sunscreen as

657
00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:02,140
a result or or trying other things and

658
00:27:05,670 --> 00:27:03,790
the cancer council actually you know

659
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:05,680
felt that it was something that was

660
00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:08,170
actually worth looking into an actual

661
00:27:13,620 --> 00:27:09,670
and putting the message out there that

662
00:27:15,330 --> 00:27:13,630
there you know the risks the small risks

663
00:27:17,910 --> 00:27:15,340
which at this point they don't even know

664
00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:17,920
where there are outweighed by the

665
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:19,720
benefits of wearing sunscreen it's a

666
00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:21,370
pretty big no-brainer isn't it

667
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:23,830
no-brainer not exactly like nanobots

668
00:27:28,770 --> 00:27:25,840
that go tunneling tunneling through your

669
00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:28,780
flesh you know they give in to you in

670
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:31,060
motor neurons and make you walk like a

671
00:27:35,610 --> 00:27:33,130
dig them with the little mini shovels

672
00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:35,620
bender and in futurama did you see the

673
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:37,420
one way it makes little clones of

674
00:27:42,090 --> 00:27:39,760
himself right down to nectar microscopic

675
00:27:45,620 --> 00:27:42,100
cancer but you know who used as

676
00:27:49,170 --> 00:27:45,630
sunscreens Joan wait to hear this segue

677
00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:49,180
celebrities like using sunscreen and

678
00:27:54,810 --> 00:27:50,860
speaking of celebrity right hands and

679
00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:54,820
goodness knows what else um so I a lot

680
00:28:02,580 --> 00:27:57,190
of people who read respectful insolence

681
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,590
the wonderful blog by Iraq might have

682
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:04,240
seen the post over the last couple of

683
00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:07,450
days about my Envy Alec the actress who

684
00:28:11,730 --> 00:28:10,660
plays any Farrah Fowler on on Big Bang

685
00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:11,740
Theory

686
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:17,470
and the actress mine bialik actually has

687
00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:21,490
a PhD in neuroscience and it turns out

688
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:23,260
that despite this scientific background

689
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:26,530
she is heavily heavily into alternative

690
00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:28,720
treatments and goodness knows what she

691
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:31,150
is she's involved with an organization

692
00:28:36,450 --> 00:28:33,840
called the holistic moms network and

693
00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:36,460
some of the people who are on the board

694
00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:38,200
of this organization include barbara lee

695
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:42,040
fisher and a lot of prominent names from

696
00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:44,710
you know auntie vax groups and all sorts

697
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:47,350
of whoo um now aside from the fact that

698
00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:49,210
I was you know a little bit irked by

699
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:51,580
this I i I'd really enjoy the show and I

700
00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:54,370
and you know I kind of knowing a bit

701
00:28:57,900 --> 00:28:56,230
about her background in science I

702
00:29:00,720 --> 00:28:57,910
thought it was quite inspiring that this

703
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:00,730
actress who was in the show also had a

704
00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:02,320
science background and that was a great

705
00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:04,470
thing so to find out that in fact she is

706
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:07,390
incredibly into all sorts of weird

707
00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:09,070
wonderful things she's actually I read

708
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:10,540
an article where she was quoted as

709
00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:12,010
saying that they are a non vaccinating

710
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:13,740
family I just got a number of children

711
00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:16,210
they've got me thinking not so much

712
00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:18,190
about her specifically but just

713
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:20,860
generally about celebrities and their

714
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:24,010
weird beliefs and at what point do we

715
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:27,370
how do we respond to these things as you

716
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:29,410
know people who enjoy movies and music

717
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:31,210
and so on when when a celebrity who we

718
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:33,250
admire in one way or another we find out

719
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:36,100
that they have let us down in some way

720
00:29:41,310 --> 00:29:38,140
with their beliefs what do we do about

721
00:29:44,850 --> 00:29:41,320
that because you know Tom Cruise for

722
00:29:46,830 --> 00:29:44,860
example oh I can't I can't watch a movie

723
00:29:49,770 --> 00:29:46,840
that the man is in because he irks me so

724
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,780
much but is it really worth the silent

725
00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:51,520
protest of not paying the money to see a

726
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:53,260
Tom Cruise movie give myself the

727
00:30:02,540 --> 00:29:59,390
can I ride need to watch a movie with

728
00:30:04,460 --> 00:30:02,550
ginger ever my god I kind of a day to

729
00:30:07,850 --> 00:30:04,470
watch a porno with Jenny McCarthy again

730
00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:07,860
oh yeah shall we get the unofficial ones

731
00:30:13,850 --> 00:30:11,160
and they good beside what about the

732
00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:13,860
simpsons dishes i love the simpsons

733
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:16,230
can't you go absolutely i know when i

734
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:20,100
found that out again it irked me now it

735
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:21,840
just I wonder what your thought about

736
00:30:27,140 --> 00:30:24,240
those sort of little protests are those

737
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:27,150
little protests worthwhile does it those

738
00:30:31,549 --> 00:30:28,970
are is it really worth the effort to

739
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:31,559
kind of make those silent protests or

740
00:30:34,610 --> 00:30:32,970
you know when it comes to something like

741
00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:34,620
Jenny McCarthy and the vaccination issue

742
00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:35,820
that's how that we can really get our

743
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:37,080
teeth into because we're dealing with

744
00:30:40,430 --> 00:30:38,700
the bigger issue when you've got some

745
00:30:42,919 --> 00:30:40,440
celebrity who just happens to use a

746
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:42,929
particular you know practices Kabbalah

747
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:45,840
or something like that oh you know when

748
00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:47,460
do we make the protests where does it

749
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:49,620
start engaging on your enjoyment as

750
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:55,050
movie esters CDs esta then you know

751
00:31:00,560 --> 00:30:57,450
where stir is that's Madonna's Hebrew

752
00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:00,570
name are you telling us you bought them

753
00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:03,900
before yeah III thought it was like it's

754
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:08,040
an ethyl like Ethel Merman know that

755
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:09,720
disco album thurs I never bought another

756
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:11,910
one Donna's laganas Hebrew name because

757
00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:13,559
she's a caballus Madonna's Hebrew name

758
00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:16,200
is Esther and not only actually speaking

759
00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:19,350
of Hebrew names Mine bialik mine is my

760
00:31:23,270 --> 00:31:21,390
be like as a Hebrew name and my means

761
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:23,280
water but it's not a common name it's a

762
00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:26,610
little bit like a woman named storm so

763
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:30,780
you know hey tell that there would be

764
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,030
were there in a way they're kind of

765
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:35,360
doing doing the world a service by

766
00:31:39,890 --> 00:31:38,370
demystifying celebrity by being so so

767
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:39,900
silly in those sort of ways they're

768
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:42,240
actually taking themselves down a few a

769
00:31:47,630 --> 00:31:46,110
few pegs because really big celebrities

770
00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:47,640
held up sites but all they are is

771
00:31:52,910 --> 00:31:48,990
they're just very good at memorizing

772
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:52,920
lines and repeating them with some kind

773
00:31:57,890 --> 00:31:55,110
of expression and some kind of sound

774
00:32:00,680 --> 00:31:57,900
while the cameras running and you know

775
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:00,690
just people who have jobs and those jobs

776
00:32:04,370 --> 00:32:02,370
happen to me memorizing

777
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:04,380
and and making the famous right and and

778
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:06,000
B but actually that's not that's not

779
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:08,010
just the case because since about

780
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,750
science which is the UK charity that

781
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:12,000
most people have heard of every year

782
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:15,330
they do a celebrity they do a survey of

783
00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:16,890
celebrities them said stupid stuff

784
00:32:20,270 --> 00:32:18,780
during the year and just this year

785
00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:20,280
they've introduced celebrities have done

786
00:32:26,150 --> 00:32:23,430
good stuff for science so last year they

787
00:32:29,030 --> 00:32:26,160
called out i'm julia sawalha who plays

788
00:32:31,250 --> 00:32:29,040
safi on absolutely fabulous because she

789
00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:31,260
only uses homeopathy when she goes to

790
00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:35,580
malaria epidemic countries android jelly

791
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:39,150
and even joanna lumley who plays Patsy

792
00:32:43,970 --> 00:32:42,510
on a track she believes that cancer is

793
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:43,980
caused by all the hormones and chemicals

794
00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:47,610
in food and that before we were putting

795
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:49,679
antibiotics into cows and chickens we

796
00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:51,510
weren't getting cancer but in fact

797
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:53,190
before we were doing that we were dying

798
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:55,440
younger because medicine hadn't advanced

799
00:32:59,210 --> 00:32:57,570
so far no no the thing is before we were

800
00:33:02,540 --> 00:32:59,220
putting hormones in chickens and cows

801
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:02,550
she wasn't getting cancer right well the

802
00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:04,380
point is though that I mean since about

803
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:05,790
signs make this point that once a

804
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:08,910
celebrity says something like with a

805
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:12,000
feltro who endorses detox immediately it

806
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:14,130
spreads it onto the internet into the

807
00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:16,320
women's mags it's just viral you can

808
00:33:19,850 --> 00:33:18,540
never take it out of the people's minds

809
00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:19,860
it's at their forefront of their minds

810
00:33:24,110 --> 00:33:22,470
so to try and counteract that they've

811
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:24,120
started doing a list of celebrities have

812
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:25,770
done good things to promote science and

813
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:27,600
this year actually it was really good

814
00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:29,460
because the top of the list was Amanda

815
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:31,800
Peet no matter if it's not very well

816
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:35,760
known to many people but she is very

817
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:37,950
good for positive campaigning about

818
00:33:42,919 --> 00:33:39,510
vaccinations so she does try to

819
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:42,929
counteract what Jenny McCarthy go fishin

820
00:33:48,919 --> 00:33:46,890
yes yes yeah but yeah it's a good point

821
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:48,929
Joe you've raised a really interesting

822
00:33:53,870 --> 00:33:50,580
point I'm sure it's one our listeners

823
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:53,880
can have a think about that what stage

824
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:57,360
do you stop enjoying whatever because

825
00:34:02,690 --> 00:34:00,059
the celebrity pushes this or that cause

826
00:34:05,779 --> 00:34:02,700
I think it's also that they come your

827
00:34:08,419 --> 00:34:05,789
time as as a skeptic where you have to

828
00:34:12,319 --> 00:34:08,429
be somewhat selective about where you

829
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,329
put your energies and sometimes walking

830
00:34:18,109 --> 00:34:14,700
down the street and stopping it every

831
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:18,119
store which is promoting I mean you

832
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:19,919
really yeah you get to the mall though

833
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:21,510
exactly and you get to the point where

834
00:34:25,609 --> 00:34:23,220
you really have to filter it out I keep

835
00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:25,619
walking yeah but I think that issue you

836
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:27,750
raised Rach about the way that the stuff

837
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:29,280
does filter through into the women's

838
00:34:35,299 --> 00:34:31,980
mags it's absolutely pervasive and it's

839
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:35,309
and it's sold to women as because these

840
00:34:38,839 --> 00:34:37,470
celebrities are using it there for you

841
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,849
know it's the next thing that they

842
00:34:41,659 --> 00:34:40,079
should be looking at and you can do this

843
00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:41,669
too and how can you do it cheaper and

844
00:34:47,530 --> 00:34:44,940
better and you know and so on but I

845
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:47,540
thought just particularly in terms of

846
00:34:52,430 --> 00:34:50,970
activism and protest and so on just

847
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:52,440
thinking about where you invest your

848
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,200
energies with those things it's a very

849
00:34:59,059 --> 00:34:57,119
good point and I know that main art has

850
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,069
been now responsible for promoting many

851
00:35:05,539 --> 00:35:01,200
things over the years as a celebrity

852
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:05,549
that's right um I'll see no karaoke VHS

853
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:07,710
tapes um things like that nothing that

854
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:09,270
will cause a lot of harm except you know

855
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:11,760
if you're seeing you know and everything

856
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:14,700
I think you like you like you can't stop

857
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:16,530
at every store but if there is a person

858
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:17,970
little protest you can do that makes you

859
00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:19,680
feel better that's good I mean like I

860
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:21,089
haven't seen a Tom Cruise movie since

861
00:35:25,299 --> 00:35:22,980
Minority Report and I feel better for

862
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:25,309
that my love it my life is enriched

863
00:35:30,620 --> 00:35:28,890
every time I think of going to see a Tom

864
00:35:34,099 --> 00:35:30,630
Cruise movie I remember far and away

865
00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:34,109
which is our own away one of the worst

866
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:36,990
films ever made you know it's certainly

867
00:35:41,359 --> 00:35:39,930
no BMX bandits or starstruck it's

868
00:35:42,890 --> 00:35:41,369
certainly not on that leg or it's not

869
00:35:46,660 --> 00:35:42,900
even in the big bus by the way the big

870
00:35:49,609 --> 00:35:46,670
bus best movie ever made the big bus

871
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:49,619
it's the big bus is there's almost a

872
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:51,510
prerunner to a movie like flying high

873
00:35:56,359 --> 00:35:54,450
it's a lot slower and not not as punchy

874
00:35:57,950 --> 00:35:56,369
but you can see where you would have

875
00:35:59,660 --> 00:35:57,960
seen the big bus and go on are we should

876
00:36:01,880 --> 00:35:59,670
make flying high its bait that an

877
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:01,890
atomic-powered bus that goes across

878
00:36:06,859 --> 00:36:05,280
America and it gets sabotaged the big

879
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:06,869
doubt flying high by the way would be

880
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:08,250
known to most of our listeners as

881
00:36:12,580 --> 00:36:10,370
airplane that's right does the mirror

882
00:36:14,410 --> 00:36:12,590
don't like provocative titles like in

883
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:14,420
bed with Madonna in Australia was called

884
00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:16,610
something completely something really

885
00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:18,620
familiar in America in bed in bed with

886
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:20,030
Madonna everywhere in the world except

887
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,250
where Madonna lived and even the harry

888
00:36:26,650 --> 00:36:24,400
potter was there the first one is

889
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:26,660
instead of philosophers stone he was

890
00:36:30,610 --> 00:36:29,510
changed to the sorceress day may not may

891
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,620
not have got a bit of a bone to pick

892
00:36:33,970 --> 00:36:32,240
with you because I actually was a robber

893
00:36:35,950 --> 00:36:33,980
signal did he disbelievers and you

894
00:36:38,620 --> 00:36:35,960
mentioned a movie called phase four and

895
00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:38,630
that the note series I on a Facebook

896
00:36:42,370 --> 00:36:40,220
that's where the ants take over the

897
00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:42,380
world yeah and Saunders he didn't

898
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:45,380
believe it he was doing it now while I

899
00:36:49,140 --> 00:36:46,730
was listening to the show I actually

900
00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:49,150
went on iTunes and bought it for that

901
00:36:54,070 --> 00:36:52,070
all right 30 bucks could I took your

902
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:54,080
recommendation as you were hyping up so

903
00:36:58,240 --> 00:36:55,730
much I went bought the thing and I

904
00:37:01,330 --> 00:36:58,250
watched it that was always the worst

905
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:01,340
movie I've ever seen ever look really do

906
00:37:05,950 --> 00:37:02,960
i recommend the piracy but in the case

907
00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:05,960
of that I would have down I'm in 30

908
00:37:09,010 --> 00:37:07,100
bucks to find out whether you like a

909
00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:09,020
movie about ants taking over the world

910
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:11,150
and get this now I can't delete it

911
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:13,070
because it's a bigger to purchase Apple

912
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:16,160
wants me to have it forever I cannot

913
00:37:21,130 --> 00:37:19,250
delete good but come on there must have

914
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:21,140
been some funny moments in it it was

915
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:22,490
very very good at Yankee we're the ants

916
00:37:25,210 --> 00:37:24,050
get inside the brain and they talk to

917
00:37:27,310 --> 00:37:25,220
each other we are controlling this

918
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:27,320
person's rain I gotta say I'm gonna

919
00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:29,510
cover and visit you gotta see come

920
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:34,700
around to see it the next topic on my

921
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:36,710
list in front of me now is to talk about

922
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:39,260
the group here in Australia friends of

923
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:43,490
science in medicine doctor aging oh yeah

924
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:45,290
well friends of science and medicine

925
00:37:49,930 --> 00:37:47,330
otherwise known as fsm was set up in

926
00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:49,940
Australia only late last year actually

927
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:54,020
I've ever made a huge impact it's it's

928
00:38:00,370 --> 00:37:56,570
been amazing basically the idea behind

929
00:38:02,170 --> 00:38:00,380
fsm was to gather together academics and

930
00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:02,180
also just concerned citizens who were

931
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:03,980
concerned about the infiltration of

932
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:06,560
pseudoscience into universities so in

933
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:08,570
particular the teaching of credulous

934
00:38:16,030 --> 00:38:12,560
teaching of cans and the idea is to

935
00:38:18,190 --> 00:38:16,040
examine universities and look at their

936
00:38:19,540 --> 00:38:18,200
courses and find areas where perhaps

937
00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:19,550
they're teaching stuff that won't be

938
00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:20,620
considered

939
00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:23,470
you know sorcery I suppose or deep end

940
00:38:27,330 --> 00:38:25,480
stuff yeah like homeopathy or iridology

941
00:38:30,990 --> 00:38:27,340
or you know stuff for which we know

942
00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:31,000
there's no evidence for and really all

943
00:38:34,590 --> 00:38:32,980
that's happened is about 400 people have

944
00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:34,600
signed up to a list that's not even

945
00:38:39,810 --> 00:38:37,360
public not even published yet and the

946
00:38:42,060 --> 00:38:39,820
amount of publicity that we've been

947
00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:42,070
getting I'm on the list full full

948
00:38:46,620 --> 00:38:45,040
disclosure I'm on the list has it been

949
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:46,630
absolutely massive even to the point of

950
00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:49,090
the New York Times for speeches stories

951
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:51,190
on us there was a big article in the

952
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:53,170
British Medical Journal just a couple of

953
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:55,810
a week ago there's been numerous

954
00:38:58,860 --> 00:38:57,490
articles on the website called the

955
00:39:02,940 --> 00:38:58,870
conversation which is the academic

956
00:39:05,460 --> 00:39:02,950
website here in Australia lots and lots

957
00:39:07,350 --> 00:39:05,470
of articles in the press there was a big

958
00:39:09,150 --> 00:39:07,360
hoo-ha riesling because there was an

959
00:39:13,770 --> 00:39:09,160
article in fairfax which is our sort of

960
00:39:16,830 --> 00:39:13,780
it's not Murdoch is it it's the non

961
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:16,840
Murdoch press and there was a poll

962
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:19,930
published as part of this article and at

963
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:21,610
first it was just people were voting it

964
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:22,780
seemed to be quite normal and then all

965
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:24,310
of a sudden it seemed to be heading

966
00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:26,380
towards the people voting much more

967
00:39:30,330 --> 00:39:29,140
towards the yes option it turned out a

968
00:39:33,450 --> 00:39:30,340
couple of days later there was another

969
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:33,460
article published where the tech guys

970
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:36,370
that Fairfax had noticed that all of a

971
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:38,650
sudden this poll was getting slammed

972
00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:40,510
with votes and there were about eight

973
00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:42,520
times more votes on the pole than people

974
00:39:47,550 --> 00:39:44,950
had actually read the page so it became

975
00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:47,560
apparent that it was being it was he was

976
00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:50,860
being botted and then someone found an

977
00:39:56,220 --> 00:39:53,220
email from a guy who's the head of the

978
00:39:57,690 --> 00:39:56,230
complementary health care council who'd

979
00:40:00,300 --> 00:39:57,700
emailed a whole lot of people and said

980
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:00,310
we want to engineer a gap on this poll

981
00:40:05,850 --> 00:40:03,220
so that we don't give any credibility to

982
00:40:08,970 --> 00:40:05,860
the fsm people because we can make it go

983
00:40:10,740 --> 00:40:08,980
in our favor that's better for us now

984
00:40:13,050 --> 00:40:10,750
this fell into the hands of the

985
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:13,060
newspaper who then wrote an article

986
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:16,090
saying this but this poll has been

987
00:40:21,450 --> 00:40:19,510
gained and hijacked by the olt meant

988
00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:21,460
people because they sent around the

989
00:40:26,810 --> 00:40:23,350
email saying everyone please go and like

990
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:26,820
crushes poll so it ended up having over

991
00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:30,250
850,000 votes by the end of the voting

992
00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:31,150
period

993
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:33,550
the most votes Fairfax have ever had on

994
00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:35,290
a pole I tell you there's one final

995
00:40:38,490 --> 00:40:36,820
thing about this that was so funny

996
00:40:40,590 --> 00:40:38,500
because the second article where they

997
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:40,600
expose that have been bottled by the cam

998
00:40:45,180 --> 00:40:43,360
people which was also bad polls yeah

999
00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:45,190
which is I how bad like you can't

1000
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:47,260
actually trust polls and it was a whole

1001
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:48,970
sorry about well you know people trust

1002
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:50,530
online polls but this brings it all into

1003
00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:52,480
question looks like he has if anyone had

1004
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:54,460
any way and in that article they had a

1005
00:41:00,840 --> 00:40:58,240
poll we said do you think you can trust

1006
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:00,850
online polls and guess what happened to

1007
00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:04,390
that pole that pole was meant to be open

1008
00:41:10,350 --> 00:41:07,240
for five days after one day it had eight

1009
00:41:12,540 --> 00:41:10,360
hundred ninety thousand votes in favor

1010
00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:12,550
of yes you should take online poll

1011
00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:15,760
seriously it was ninety-five percent 5%

1012
00:41:20,850 --> 00:41:18,820
they shut it down that is that is more

1013
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:20,860
votes than than the poll should we ana

1014
00:41:26,310 --> 00:41:24,640
get back together with Chris Brown I'm

1015
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:26,320
shocked to hear that all right you just

1016
00:41:30,060 --> 00:41:28,150
wanted to add something about the

1017
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:30,070
origins of FSS I think it's important

1018
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:32,650
yes so yeah I think it's important to

1019
00:41:36,830 --> 00:41:34,630
point out that obviously we share a lot

1020
00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:36,840
of the ideas and thoughts with the

1021
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:39,220
Friends of science and medicine but they

1022
00:41:45,870 --> 00:41:42,850
also started because or very much based

1023
00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:45,880
on a couple of articles a series a

1024
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:48,340
two-part series of articles written in

1025
00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:50,560
the skeptic magazine they were written

1026
00:41:56,010 --> 00:41:53,080
by Tim with a huge amount of assistance

1027
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:56,020
from Joe and in these articles were

1028
00:42:02,670 --> 00:41:59,440
about the what quackery at universities

1029
00:42:03,870 --> 00:42:02,680
yeah and the guys from the Friends of

1030
00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:03,880
science and medicine I mean particularly

1031
00:42:08,310 --> 00:42:05,830
Loretta who is the CEO of the

1032
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:08,320
organization they read this they got

1033
00:42:12,060 --> 00:42:10,090
really upset at the same time there was

1034
00:42:14,250 --> 00:42:12,070
the whole issue with chiropractic an

1035
00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:14,260
RMIT the guy from the guy who managed

1036
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:16,180
chiropractic RMIT moved to the

1037
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:17,890
university of central Central Queensland

1038
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:19,450
there was all of that happening at the

1039
00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:22,690
same time and obviously they that

1040
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:25,390
created the momentum and then Loretta

1041
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:28,690
and five professors started the

1042
00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:31,630
organization many from our organization

1043
00:42:37,290 --> 00:42:33,790
world that some of the first to sign

1044
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:37,300
sign up to become signatories to the

1045
00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:38,560
organization or members of the

1046
00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:43,720
and yeah and your alien skeptics as an

1047
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:46,790
organization is also a member so yeah of

1048
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:49,450
course we have very close links to them

1049
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:52,130
and we wish them every success and so

1050
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:54,880
far they've been doing amazing work in

1051
00:43:00,250 --> 00:42:57,890
pressing the universities to stop this

1052
00:43:02,050 --> 00:43:00,260
nonsense and not teach things that are

1053
00:43:03,310 --> 00:43:02,060
doona that are not supported by evidence

1054
00:43:05,050 --> 00:43:03,320
there was actually something really

1055
00:43:07,150 --> 00:43:05,060
great the university I think it was

1056
00:43:08,290 --> 00:43:07,160
Charles was it Charles Sturt one of the

1057
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:08,300
universities I don't remember which

1058
00:43:14,650 --> 00:43:12,470
university on their quackery page on the

1059
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:14,660
uh no sir they only there was the page

1060
00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:17,510
where they were advertising or promoting

1061
00:43:24,730 --> 00:43:20,950
their complimentary complimentary

1062
00:43:27,610 --> 00:43:24,740
modalities courses they actually said

1063
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:27,620
that this basically they they took it

1064
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:30,410
they put a disclaimer that said this is

1065
00:43:34,810 --> 00:43:32,570
we do not actually teach those non

1066
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:34,820
evidence-based modalities what this

1067
00:43:39,370 --> 00:43:38,000
course is is a course for people who

1068
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:39,380
already practiced those modalities so

1069
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,360
they learn about the science it's kind

1070
00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:43,280
of to enrich them about the science and

1071
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:45,560
to understand how to how to better

1072
00:43:49,150 --> 00:43:47,420
investigate what evidence there is I

1073
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:49,160
don't know whether it's true or not but

1074
00:43:53,950 --> 00:43:51,170
the fact that if University was felt

1075
00:43:56,140 --> 00:43:53,960
compelled to do that is a really gritty

1076
00:43:57,730 --> 00:43:56,150
good time and I hope that they continue

1077
00:43:59,350 --> 00:43:57,740
to do other certainly people feeling a

1078
00:44:01,570 --> 00:43:59,360
lot of pressure and a lot of people are

1079
00:44:03,310 --> 00:44:01,580
very threatened by this this group of

1080
00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:03,320
friends of science and medicine I've got

1081
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:04,520
to say I've been involved in this

1082
00:44:08,530 --> 00:44:07,310
discussion for a long time and in fact

1083
00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:08,540
if anyone's interested go to the

1084
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:10,280
conversation the conversation calm today

1085
00:44:14,830 --> 00:44:13,490
you and look for an article called what

1086
00:44:16,990 --> 00:44:14,840
cam courses should look like in

1087
00:44:18,850 --> 00:44:17,000
universities it's just been published so

1088
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:18,860
it should be on the homepage it's a

1089
00:44:22,060 --> 00:44:20,690
really really good summary and overview

1090
00:44:25,060 --> 00:44:22,070
have really what we're about and what

1091
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:25,070
we're trying to achieve and it's not as

1092
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:26,930
some people are interpreting it apply a

1093
00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:28,790
flamethrower to Cameron you lose that's

1094
00:44:35,410 --> 00:44:32,060
exactly not what we're about we're about

1095
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:35,420
looking at each modality at face value

1096
00:44:41,230 --> 00:44:38,570
and working out whether it's justified

1097
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:41,240
to keep it in universities so that means

1098
00:44:48,559 --> 00:44:45,180
homeopathy gone supplementary like

1099
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:48,569
yeah I'm afraid so supplements and like

1100
00:44:54,980 --> 00:44:50,970
herbal medicine no of course we got

1101
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:54,990
flush though that what's really it's

1102
00:44:59,559 --> 00:44:56,490
sort of irritating me about it is that

1103
00:45:04,579 --> 00:44:59,569
they are it's almost a deliberate

1104
00:45:06,290 --> 00:45:04,589
changing of fsm argument or distortion

1105
00:45:08,180 --> 00:45:06,300
of it to make it look like what's being

1106
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:08,190
said is get rid of it we don't want to

1107
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:09,660
know we don't we don't even want to look

1108
00:45:16,609 --> 00:45:13,770
into it and it's really it's really sort

1109
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:16,619
of misleading the public as to what the

1110
00:45:20,569 --> 00:45:18,990
aims of fsm oh I agree but I don't think

1111
00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:20,579
people are able to understand that joy

1112
00:45:24,380 --> 00:45:22,230
because the article that's on the

1113
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:24,390
conversation now the one about what cam

1114
00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:27,540
courses should look like really clearly

1115
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:29,670
explains that that it's not about

1116
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:31,440
throwing out everything yet you read the

1117
00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:32,910
comments and there's still comments from

1118
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:34,740
people going you want to throw out heads

1119
00:45:38,299 --> 00:45:36,210
but what about some john's wort and what

1120
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:38,309
about aspirin it came from a tree and as

1121
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:39,930
know if you read the article it's

1122
00:45:43,730 --> 00:45:42,210
absolutely not what he's saying so it

1123
00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:43,740
says cognitive dissonance i think that

1124
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:46,260
people have it suits the other side to

1125
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:48,089
pay just like that and also you must

1126
00:45:52,099 --> 00:45:49,200
remember that the people who are making

1127
00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:52,109
those comments they they're high on omni

1128
00:45:56,450 --> 00:45:54,900
APPA the-- anyway so you've got because

1129
00:45:59,240 --> 00:45:56,460
cam i think is seen to them as an

1130
00:46:03,230 --> 00:45:59,250
umbrella thing whereas we are trying to

1131
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:03,240
look at evidence and case by case on

1132
00:46:06,890 --> 00:46:05,520
face value yeah but they can't seem to

1133
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:06,900
do that and someone made this

1134
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:08,250
observation recently and i think it's

1135
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,490
really true is that if that even if it's

1136
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:13,920
if a modality i care modality is proven

1137
00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:15,180
not to work they cling to what even

1138
00:46:20,450 --> 00:46:18,089
tighter you know but they're unable to

1139
00:46:23,210 --> 00:46:20,460
dissociate from dogma it doesn't seem at

1140
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:23,220
all so but it's a really interesting

1141
00:46:26,990 --> 00:46:25,650
argument absolutely theories come in you

1142
00:46:28,819 --> 00:46:27,000
know that yeah they're big pharma

1143
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:28,829
shipment karma's shoes yeah you know and

1144
00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:31,410
the fact that obviously big supplement

1145
00:46:36,549 --> 00:46:33,599
makes no money do they big homeopathy

1146
00:46:39,410 --> 00:46:36,559
also you know the thing is ken harvey

1147
00:46:42,260 --> 00:46:39,420
complains about pharmaceutical big

1148
00:46:43,930 --> 00:46:42,270
pharma almost as often as it complains

1149
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:43,940
about alternative medicines i

1150
00:46:48,530 --> 00:46:46,770
participated in a hearing representative

1151
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:48,540
pharmacist together with ken in a

1152
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:50,010
hearing in which a pharmaceutical got

1153
00:46:55,010 --> 00:46:52,170
fine forty thousand dollars because of

1154
00:46:56,660 --> 00:46:55,020
our testimony we we are not afraid to

1155
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,670
attack big farmer when a big pharma

1156
00:46:59,580 --> 00:46:57,760
falls afoul of what they

1157
00:47:01,800 --> 00:46:59,590
should be doing if you're an example of

1158
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:01,810
something so ridiculous that you won't

1159
00:47:06,450 --> 00:47:04,690
believe it right I am an editor on a

1160
00:47:07,830 --> 00:47:06,460
complementary medicine journal called

1161
00:47:10,350 --> 00:47:07,840
focus on alternative and complementary

1162
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:10,360
therapies I published about five

1163
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:12,730
articles in there one of which is a

1164
00:47:17,100 --> 00:47:14,530
review of acupuncture which came out

1165
00:47:19,590 --> 00:47:17,110
today I got accused of being a big

1166
00:47:21,450 --> 00:47:19,600
pharma shell because that journal is

1167
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:21,460
supported by the British pharmaceutical

1168
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:24,910
Association well it's a complementary

1169
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:26,710
medicine journal where I write about

1170
00:47:33,390 --> 00:47:30,910
acupuncture chi gong tai chi by no but

1171
00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:33,400
you're a shield to be great but what's

1172
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:35,230
really appalling about that is that if

1173
00:47:38,730 --> 00:47:36,960
the stuff that you're publishing

1174
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:38,740
actually is finding that these

1175
00:47:43,770 --> 00:47:40,900
modalities don't work it's there for

1176
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:43,780
saying big it's it's saying well if

1177
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:45,250
you're finding that the stuff doesn't

1178
00:47:49,140 --> 00:47:46,960
work then you must be supported by big

1179
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:49,150
farmer and therefore you can only you

1180
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:51,310
couldn't possibly be doing stuff to

1181
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:52,450
support I think you're not saying that

1182
00:47:56,220 --> 00:47:54,400
it work that is making the assumption

1183
00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:56,230
they bother to read my research show and

1184
00:47:59,310 --> 00:47:57,790
they didn't they just saw that it is

1185
00:48:01,440 --> 00:47:59,320
supported by the British people just

1186
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:01,450
simply regard you as a big pharma show

1187
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:04,000
they said because I write for this kind

1188
00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:06,130
of entertainer I mean how ridiculous

1189
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:08,920
awesome right dr. age I yeah I just have

1190
00:48:15,140 --> 00:48:11,050
to look at your 7-series BMW and I

1191
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:15,150
thought and I start to get suspicious

1192
00:48:21,690 --> 00:48:20,290
just stop just to clarify what you said

1193
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:21,700
before it is actually Charles Sturt

1194
00:48:24,690 --> 00:48:22,930
University that have put their

1195
00:48:26,130 --> 00:48:24,700
disclaimer what what what's interesting

1196
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:26,140
is when you actually look at the course

1197
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:29,650
content it is a health sciences degree

1198
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:32,530
and the you know they make it quite

1199
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:34,450
explicit that they do not that this

1200
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:37,210
disclaimer says that CSU does not teach

1201
00:48:40,740 --> 00:48:39,430
homeopathy iridology reflexology or any

1202
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:40,750
other subjects that are not based on

1203
00:48:46,590 --> 00:48:44,770
experimental evidence and it goes on but

1204
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,600
you know you look at what that's what

1205
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:48,640
the course covers and its

1206
00:48:52,410 --> 00:48:50,650
pathophysiology and pharmacology

1207
00:48:54,510 --> 00:48:52,420
evidence-based complementary medicine

1208
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:54,520
what I want to know is I would love them

1209
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:57,040
to actually do some research of the

1210
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:00,160
students coming out of these horses to

1211
00:49:02,890 --> 00:49:01,010
see

1212
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:02,900
watch they're actually then practicing

1213
00:49:07,270 --> 00:49:04,400
because if they're coming in there if a

1214
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:07,280
naturopath or you know an acupuncturist

1215
00:49:10,510 --> 00:49:08,720
or whatever the person is doing that

1216
00:49:13,570 --> 00:49:10,520
course does the course with the aim of

1217
00:49:15,310 --> 00:49:13,580
them learning better evidence based

1218
00:49:16,930 --> 00:49:15,320
practice they come out of the course

1219
00:49:18,670 --> 00:49:16,940
they go out there and they're practicing

1220
00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:18,680
as a naturopath and an acupuncturist

1221
00:49:23,050 --> 00:49:21,200
well ultimately if they're using things

1222
00:49:24,460 --> 00:49:23,060
that the evidence shows doesn't work

1223
00:49:26,830 --> 00:49:24,470
then what is the course actually

1224
00:49:29,020 --> 00:49:26,840
achieving is it just is it just going it

1225
00:49:30,730 --> 00:49:29,030
up and saying therefore we've now got

1226
00:49:31,630 --> 00:49:30,740
this degree so I'm more legitimate but

1227
00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:31,640
I'm still going to just keep practicing

1228
00:49:35,020 --> 00:49:33,380
what I'm practicing that their argument

1229
00:49:36,910 --> 00:49:35,030
for that I have had a look into this and

1230
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:36,920
their argument is that there are a lot

1231
00:49:40,090 --> 00:49:38,450
of they say and I haven't seen any

1232
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:40,100
evidence for this they say that a lot of

1233
00:49:43,630 --> 00:49:41,810
people that get into that stream are

1234
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:43,640
then offered alternatives to go into

1235
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:45,710
medicine physiology sorry farmer

1236
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:49,250
pharmacy and nursing after that so they

1237
00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:51,650
filter them in from whoo they put them

1238
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:54,320
into this evidence-based two year is it

1239
00:49:59,290 --> 00:49:56,810
postgrad course and then some of them go

1240
00:50:01,360 --> 00:49:59,300
off and do real science but I don't know

1241
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:01,370
where many that is and I couldn't find

1242
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:02,810
any information about I've been really

1243
00:50:06,580 --> 00:50:04,250
interested to know that because I mean I

1244
00:50:09,550 --> 00:50:06,590
think if if it is actually having a

1245
00:50:11,170 --> 00:50:09,560
positive outcome if it is actually you

1246
00:50:13,450 --> 00:50:11,180
know churning out students who are

1247
00:50:14,770 --> 00:50:13,460
thinking more critically and who are

1248
00:50:16,540 --> 00:50:14,780
actually prepared to look at the way

1249
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:16,550
they're practicing these alternative

1250
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:18,110
modalities and say hang on a second

1251
00:50:20,950 --> 00:50:19,730
actually be able to chose this doesn't

1252
00:50:23,140 --> 00:50:20,960
work maybe I shouldn't be doing yeah

1253
00:50:25,060 --> 00:50:23,150
then that's that's a good thing I could

1254
00:50:26,020 --> 00:50:25,070
I can I can live with that but if

1255
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:26,030
they're just coming out the other end

1256
00:50:30,970 --> 00:50:28,730
and just Carolina I couldn't find the

1257
00:50:33,970 --> 00:50:30,980
evidence for that yet I'm looking for it

1258
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:33,980
though sounds suspicious to me like

1259
00:50:39,970 --> 00:50:37,130
the bad outcome of that would be it's

1260
00:50:42,609 --> 00:50:39,980
just helping them to sound more credible

1261
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:42,619
that's the point exactly that's the

1262
00:50:44,980 --> 00:50:43,850
point and that's one of the arguments

1263
00:50:47,020 --> 00:50:44,990
that we've been having with some

1264
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:47,030
ultimate people is they're saying that

1265
00:50:51,490 --> 00:50:49,580
you shouldn't take cam and ultimate out

1266
00:50:53,230 --> 00:50:51,500
of unions because at least then we know

1267
00:50:55,150 --> 00:50:53,240
they're getting trained properly come

1268
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:55,160
out as a veteran that to us and they

1269
00:50:58,060 --> 00:50:56,690
would have they came out of the

1270
00:51:00,340 --> 00:50:58,070
Australian college of natural therapies

1271
00:51:02,349 --> 00:51:00,350
but where's the evidence for that where

1272
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:02,359
is it I don't see it and the thing is is

1273
00:51:07,180 --> 00:51:04,400
that Southern Cross who had Merrill Dory

1274
00:51:10,180 --> 00:51:07,190
teaching vaccinations to neone in a

1275
00:51:12,070 --> 00:51:10,190
neonatal class oh sure about that one we

1276
00:51:13,660 --> 00:51:12,080
do I exciting yes I remember something

1277
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:13,670
Meryl Dory was teaching someone at

1278
00:51:18,490 --> 00:51:14,960
Southern Cross which I've never been out

1279
00:51:19,930 --> 00:51:18,500
of 5 and I'm still looking for that is

1280
00:51:21,310 --> 00:51:19,940
that just because that was taught me

1281
00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:21,320
Unni doesn't mean you come out any less

1282
00:51:23,890 --> 00:51:22,730
anti backs and if you learnt it in the

1283
00:51:26,859 --> 00:51:23,900
Blue Mountains in a secret meeting

1284
00:51:29,770 --> 00:51:26,869
underground you know absolutely thank

1285
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:29,780
you man now one of the major forces in

1286
00:51:34,359 --> 00:51:31,490
the the Friends of science and medicine

1287
00:51:36,730 --> 00:51:34,369
is professor john dwyer iran professor

1288
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:36,740
john dwyer and he is actually speaking

1289
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:40,490
here in sydney on the thirty-first of

1290
00:51:46,170 --> 00:51:43,070
marsh at an Australian skeptics dinner

1291
00:51:48,580 --> 00:51:46,180
meeting the first one of 2012 yes and

1292
00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:48,590
I'm not sure whether the information is

1293
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:51,020
on our website just yet but if it isn't

1294
00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:52,130
then it will be in the next few days

1295
00:51:58,720 --> 00:51:57,590
yeah wwc XCOM a youth you're in Sydney

1296
00:52:01,450 --> 00:51:58,730
and you want to find out more about

1297
00:52:02,859 --> 00:52:01,460
friends of science in medicine come

1298
00:52:06,130 --> 00:52:02,869
along to our dinner meeting which is

1299
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:06,140
great fun it is a good dinner and an

1300
00:52:11,980 --> 00:52:09,170
interesting speakers now rhe a quick

1301
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:11,990
shout out to our friends in Canberra

1302
00:52:17,109 --> 00:52:14,210
because you and I have both gone down in

1303
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:17,119
the last month's to speak in Canberra

1304
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:19,250
our nation's capital and you were only

1305
00:52:22,510 --> 00:52:20,720
there the other day you had a great time

1306
00:52:25,150 --> 00:52:22,520
I had a great time the guys in Canberra

1307
00:52:27,099 --> 00:52:25,160
are so professional do a fantastic job

1308
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:27,109
brought me wine and dinner that has

1309
00:52:32,380 --> 00:52:30,410
nothing to do but they have this

1310
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:32,390
fantastic venue and your shield women

1311
00:52:37,420 --> 00:52:34,250
that was Michelle payment you're a shill

1312
00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:37,430
for big whiner and and Big Train oak and

1313
00:52:42,220 --> 00:52:39,500
their panera at Reno trip as well

1314
00:52:44,860 --> 00:52:42,230
venom and bustle they have a great venue

1315
00:52:50,110 --> 00:52:44,870
it's the CSIRO discovery center yes

1316
00:52:52,090 --> 00:52:50,120
which is part of Anu and we had about 80

1317
00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:52,100
to 100 people there Fred I gave a talk

1318
00:52:57,370 --> 00:52:54,350
about health information on the internet

1319
00:52:59,380 --> 00:52:57,380
so as my god dr. google talk but a

1320
00:53:02,050 --> 00:52:59,390
little bit expanded from what I've done

1321
00:53:05,380 --> 00:53:02,060
before with puppets yed puppets and

1322
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,390
interpretive dance like the ABC

1323
00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:07,760
interpretive bandicut you know the one

1324
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:13,940
that first up on the moon remember that

1325
00:53:17,830 --> 00:53:15,890
one camera a camera skeptics are doing

1326
00:53:20,620 --> 00:53:17,840
great stuff that and they're great talks

1327
00:53:23,590 --> 00:53:20,630
and and they're doing the convention in

1328
00:53:26,140 --> 00:53:23,600
2013 but if anyone is in Canberra they

1329
00:53:28,420 --> 00:53:26,150
do skeptics in the pub I think on some

1330
00:53:29,770 --> 00:53:28,430
it sunday afternoons once a month I

1331
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:29,780
haven't got that information to hand but

1332
00:53:33,310 --> 00:53:31,610
people please google camera settings

1333
00:53:35,950 --> 00:53:33,320
camera skeptic stood all today you i

1334
00:53:38,050 --> 00:53:35,960
think but yeah never they're fantastic

1335
00:53:41,110 --> 00:53:38,060
and in fact i just got a little

1336
00:53:42,990 --> 00:53:41,120
notification about 2013 the australian

1337
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:43,000
skeptics national convention in canberra

1338
00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:45,170
something to do with the 50th

1339
00:53:52,750 --> 00:53:49,190
anniversary of JFK may night oh look

1340
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:52,760
again look when is that Patsy get when

1341
00:53:56,890 --> 00:53:54,770
you're going to give that guy rest ok if

1342
00:53:59,260 --> 00:53:56,900
Oswald had gone to trial we wouldn't be

1343
00:54:02,320 --> 00:53:59,270
here now talking about them he did and

1344
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:02,330
I've got the video ah yes well well

1345
00:54:06,430 --> 00:54:04,310
that's a big shield from big y know I

1346
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:06,440
think you're fired up there but I will

1347
00:54:10,540 --> 00:54:08,450
watch that anyway and it's and anyone

1348
00:54:11,950 --> 00:54:10,550
who did listen to the disbelievers we

1349
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:11,960
had it we had a bit of an altercation on

1350
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:13,730
it at all on the last episode which

1351
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:15,410
would make a good episode seven if we

1352
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:18,170
ever do 150 years next year since that

1353
00:54:23,410 --> 00:54:20,690
that day that's incredible now I run a

1354
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:23,420
little note here to talk about the TGA

1355
00:54:31,780 --> 00:54:27,200
and something called undo it yes undo it

1356
00:54:34,930 --> 00:54:31,790
is another well hundred should I go it's

1357
00:54:37,630 --> 00:54:34,940
a slimming agent of sword now I think

1358
00:54:40,690 --> 00:54:37,640
you undo you undo it because the idea is

1359
00:54:43,780 --> 00:54:40,700
that you you can take it you can eat

1360
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:43,790
whatever you want and counter it by

1361
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:46,460
taking a pill appeal is worth about a

1362
00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:49,310
dollar and say they say that a chocolate

1363
00:54:54,770 --> 00:54:51,720
biscuit so you can counter with

1364
00:55:01,760 --> 00:54:54,780
with one pill a tub of ice cream is two

1365
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:01,770
pills and Yeah Yeah right right just

1366
00:55:05,570 --> 00:55:03,660
doing the minding here for a big tub of

1367
00:55:07,940 --> 00:55:05,580
ice cream hard drive he doesn't see how

1368
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:07,950
big the tub of ice cream is when there's

1369
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:11,010
actually a pharmaceutical drug that does

1370
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:12,570
this called xenical that used to be

1371
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:14,640
about that would bind with the fat and

1372
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:16,050
pass it out of your body which was a

1373
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:17,910
really bad idea in actos action after

1374
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,680
they started using it is it something

1375
00:55:23,210 --> 00:55:21,359
like the xenical of the farmer

1376
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:23,220
pharmaceuticals I don't know I don't

1377
00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:25,530
know all the claims i looked at their ad

1378
00:55:28,550 --> 00:55:27,150
it was it was very simplistic he didn't

1379
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:28,560
provide a lot of information but the

1380
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:30,570
point is that if it were then it would

1381
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:32,760
be unsafe and would not be he'll out to

1382
00:55:37,070 --> 00:55:35,010
we could not be used I suppose it

1383
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:37,080
probably isn't it's probably another

1384
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:39,119
another scam we we can't be sure of

1385
00:55:47,359 --> 00:55:40,680
course we don't know all the details but

1386
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,369
ken harvey complain to the DGA energy

1387
00:55:50,420 --> 00:55:48,960
and time and time again and he just gets

1388
00:55:52,910 --> 00:55:50,430
knocked back it I know that I need the

1389
00:55:54,770 --> 00:55:52,920
TJ did did actually respond very

1390
00:55:59,780 --> 00:55:54,780
positively said they took note of his

1391
00:56:02,170 --> 00:55:59,790
complaint oh it is isn't it got a

1392
00:56:04,579 --> 00:56:02,180
response is is that a sort of a

1393
00:56:07,460 --> 00:56:04,589
bureaucrat talk for we answered the

1394
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:07,470
phone pretty much yeah it's what do you

1395
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:11,130
mean look that cuz they didn't dismiss

1396
00:56:17,060 --> 00:56:13,920
it completely but let's say this way ken

1397
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:17,070
would have to keep on top of it to make

1398
00:56:20,420 --> 00:56:18,570
anything happen about it now the good

1399
00:56:22,310 --> 00:56:20,430
thing about ken is that he will keep on

1400
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:22,320
top of it he will continue to pressure

1401
00:56:27,079 --> 00:56:24,690
them and if this thing continues to be

1402
00:56:29,060 --> 00:56:27,089
marketed then eventually something will

1403
00:56:30,530 --> 00:56:29,070
happen but it could take a very long

1404
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:30,540
time in the meantime they'll make a lot

1405
00:56:34,359 --> 00:56:31,650
of money and you know these things

1406
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:34,369
eventually they disappear and they

1407
00:56:38,540 --> 00:56:36,810
dissipate because there is an issue

1408
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,550
there's some initial hype about it then

1409
00:56:43,370 --> 00:56:41,040
people take it just like one two three

1410
00:56:46,210 --> 00:56:43,380
gut flush oh that's right that's taking

1411
00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:46,220
off big time since our presentation yeah

1412
00:56:50,830 --> 00:56:49,220
unbelievable I think one of the points

1413
00:56:52,420 --> 00:56:50,840
though that ken was making he wrote an

1414
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:52,430
article on the conversation again today

1415
00:56:56,740 --> 00:56:54,890
about this was that there was a review

1416
00:56:59,470 --> 00:56:56,750
of the TGA in the last couple of months

1417
00:57:00,670 --> 00:56:59,480
and it involved a huge amount of people

1418
00:57:02,260 --> 00:57:00,680
that spent a lot of time going through

1419
00:57:04,510 --> 00:57:02,270
the legislation and working out where

1420
00:57:06,550 --> 00:57:04,520
changes should be made one of the things

1421
00:57:08,260 --> 00:57:06,560
that they cited as a really important

1422
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:08,270
thing that should be changed is that

1423
00:57:12,550 --> 00:57:10,970
when sponsors are listing a product they

1424
00:57:14,349 --> 00:57:12,560
just have an open little box where they

1425
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:14,359
can type any kinds they like about this

1426
00:57:18,370 --> 00:57:16,640
product so they can say this is a magic

1427
00:57:20,170 --> 00:57:18,380
pill that reverses the norm she just had

1428
00:57:23,470 --> 00:57:20,180
they don't need to provide any evidence

1429
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:23,480
of that now it was recommended that that

1430
00:57:27,220 --> 00:57:25,310
should be stopped that they didn't have

1431
00:57:29,650 --> 00:57:27,230
the option to put free text in to make

1432
00:57:31,150 --> 00:57:29,660
up sheets basically and the teeth the

1433
00:57:33,250 --> 00:57:31,160
government just went now that's too hard

1434
00:57:35,859 --> 00:57:33,260
we're not going to do that so all that

1435
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:35,869
effort of people making going through

1436
00:57:38,620 --> 00:57:37,010
all this legislation and then

1437
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:38,630
potentially tightening up that

1438
00:57:43,060 --> 00:57:41,210
legislation was just dismissed by the

1439
00:57:44,859 --> 00:57:43,070
government so now these people who are

1440
00:57:47,170 --> 00:57:44,869
making this undo it's tougher going ha

1441
00:57:49,930 --> 00:57:47,180
ha ha ha we'll just make up more [\h__\h]

1442
00:57:52,150 --> 00:57:49,940
it's not just people like undo it it's

1443
00:57:53,500 --> 00:57:52,160
also real pharmaceuticals and we had

1444
00:57:55,570 --> 00:57:53,510
this situation I with the people who

1445
00:57:58,120 --> 00:57:55,580
sell nurofen where they were there were

1446
00:57:59,320 --> 00:57:58,130
twice there were twice told to stop

1447
00:58:01,990 --> 00:57:59,330
doing what they were doing because one

1448
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:02,000
one time they were you may remember that

1449
00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:04,130
they were given the shonky last year

1450
00:58:10,630 --> 00:58:07,040
because they were selling nurofen the

1451
00:58:12,550 --> 00:58:10,640
migraine pain and europe admits period

1452
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:12,560
pain and all those kind of thing they're

1453
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:15,410
all exactly the same just like

1454
00:58:20,380 --> 00:58:17,570
homeopathy yeah we handed twenty four

1455
00:58:22,990 --> 00:58:20,390
milligrams I think it was a lie yeah 425

1456
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:23,000
was it something is they are all exactly

1457
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:25,130
the same formulation different colored

1458
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:27,650
box and different prices and and then

1459
00:58:34,570 --> 00:58:33,290
the TGA actually also not the CRP there

1460
00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:34,580
the complaint resolution panel which is

1461
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:36,800
all about advertising ruled against them

1462
00:58:42,190 --> 00:58:39,170
because they were advertising nurofen as

1463
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:42,200
being targeting the source of the pain

1464
00:58:48,190 --> 00:58:45,410
which is nonsense it's systemic it

1465
00:58:50,020 --> 00:58:48,200
targets Atari every brain it's a there's

1466
00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:50,030
nothing to do with targeting the yeah

1467
00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:51,950
the site of the pain you take Italy goes

1468
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:53,750
who I'm gonna go up this over here in

1469
00:58:57,150 --> 00:58:54,970
debate

1470
00:58:59,010 --> 00:58:57,160
and they have ads that clearly show it

1471
00:59:01,620 --> 00:58:59,020
as if it is going to the side of the

1472
00:59:06,750 --> 00:59:01,630
pain that's me hey there's been two

1473
00:59:07,980 --> 00:59:06,760
boxes thank you exactly or oh no no no

1474
00:59:10,860 --> 00:59:07,990
none of you are getting your shield

1475
00:59:13,470 --> 00:59:10,870
checks is not know and the thing is this

1476
00:59:15,780 --> 00:59:13,480
company got a ruling against it and they

1477
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:15,790
ignored it and worse than that i write

1478
00:59:20,190 --> 00:59:17,920
this facetious littles like flippity

1479
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:20,200
response going we will continue to

1480
00:59:25,830 --> 00:59:21,730
target our product in this manner that's

1481
00:59:28,620 --> 00:59:25,840
right basically shove it up your bum yes

1482
00:59:30,810 --> 00:59:28,630
they know that because no consequences

1483
00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:30,820
and they say if those people who sell on

1484
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:32,230
me up a thick and can do whatever they

1485
00:59:40,620 --> 00:59:36,730
want why can't we and they can so that's

1486
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:40,630
right at the moment yeah we're on their

1487
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:42,130
tail we're on their case we're on their

1488
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:45,370
case now before we wrap up a big plug to

1489
00:59:52,380 --> 00:59:49,330
a guy who we all enjoy the videos when

1490
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:52,390
he produces videos potholder 54 on

1491
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:54,490
youtube folks if you're not subscribed

1492
01:00:00,960 --> 00:59:58,210
to pot Hall of 54 what's stopping you

1493
01:00:02,810 --> 01:00:00,970
please do his latest video he often has

1494
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:02,820
wonderful things about creationism

1495
01:00:08,580 --> 01:00:06,070
actually and absolutely in here words

1496
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:08,590
the golden Crocodoc the continuity to

1497
01:00:14,430 --> 01:00:12,400
the winning creationist [\h__\h] lunacy out

1498
01:00:16,380 --> 01:00:14,440
there but he's turned his attention just

1499
01:00:19,170 --> 01:00:16,390
recently his latest video is health

1500
01:00:20,940 --> 01:00:19,180
vaccinations and junk science really

1501
01:00:25,130 --> 01:00:20,950
great and this is going to be the first

1502
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:28,080
us about the bus announcement after all

1503
01:00:31,740 --> 01:00:30,130
these months but he's Tony's attentional

1504
01:00:36,330 --> 01:00:31,750
Swagger's a lot of bass wish that get

1505
01:00:38,250 --> 01:00:36,340
that right please subscribe to potholer

1506
01:00:40,460 --> 01:00:38,260
54 have a look at his latest video

1507
01:00:44,610 --> 01:00:40,470
health vaccinations and junk science a

1508
01:00:47,010 --> 01:00:44,620
wonderful start of a series which I'm

1509
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:47,020
delighted to say good good one he's

1510
01:00:50,460 --> 01:00:48,610
name's Peter Hadfield Peter Hadfield

1511
01:00:52,650 --> 01:00:50,470
field he came from spoken a secret

1512
01:00:55,470 --> 01:00:52,660
identity yeah well no notes no this

1513
01:00:57,630 --> 01:00:55,480
can't open no secret he spoke at our

1514
01:00:59,970 --> 01:00:57,640
last convention of course yeah and

1515
01:01:03,170 --> 01:00:59,980
before we go it's a present job rachey

1516
01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:03,180
because I just know she loves new moon

1517
01:01:11,100 --> 01:01:06,990
so so this some this is something called

1518
01:01:13,230 --> 01:01:11,110
ECR it's some energetic cellular release

1519
01:01:16,050 --> 01:01:13,240
and was developed by a very clever

1520
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:16,060
naturopath this is like flashes and the

1521
01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:19,510
purpose of NCR the purpose of ECR is a

1522
01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:21,670
technique to retrain the cells organs

1523
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:23,110
and glands of the body to react in a

1524
01:01:27,180 --> 01:01:25,450
positive manner to stimuli by releasing

1525
01:01:30,660 --> 01:01:27,190
energetic memories stored in the cells

1526
01:01:31,860 --> 01:01:30,670
of those tissues sorry but but what I

1527
01:01:34,110 --> 01:01:31,870
thought you'd be particularly interested

1528
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:34,120
in is you know we always talked a lot

1529
01:01:37,950 --> 01:01:36,610
about you no contraindications and you

1530
01:01:40,770 --> 01:01:37,960
know you shouldn't mix medications

1531
01:01:43,830 --> 01:01:40,780
together that have you know interactions

1532
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:43,840
and so on well apparently there are some

1533
01:01:49,260 --> 01:01:45,310
special instructions that need to be

1534
01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:49,270
taken into account if you have ECR when

1535
01:01:52,770 --> 01:01:50,710
coming to a session it is best that the

1536
01:01:55,530 --> 01:01:52,780
person not be hungry too stressed or to

1537
01:01:57,960 --> 01:01:55,540
fatigue also for three hours afterwards

1538
01:01:59,790 --> 01:01:57,970
avoid any strenuous exercise or energy

1539
01:02:05,009 --> 01:01:59,800
balancing techniques such as acupuncture

1540
01:02:13,859 --> 01:02:05,019
all right here boy don't like to play

1541
01:02:16,289 --> 01:02:13,869
that should be a general rule thanks Joe

1542
01:02:17,759 --> 01:02:16,299
what an interesting way to anything take

1543
01:02:19,469 --> 01:02:17,769
well thank you everybody it's great we I

1544
01:02:22,499 --> 01:02:19,479
don't do think tanks too often anymore

1545
01:02:25,139 --> 01:02:22,509
we should do it illegally I think I know

1546
01:02:27,059 --> 01:02:25,149
the fans are really enjoy it's like

1547
01:02:28,499 --> 01:02:27,069
you're with us everybody listening out

1548
01:02:29,909 --> 01:02:28,509
there it's like you're sitting there you

1549
01:02:31,409 --> 01:02:29,919
are at the end of the table and you're

1550
01:02:33,269 --> 01:02:31,419
raising your guys actually just got a

1551
01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:33,279
tweet from Lucas Randall organizer of

1552
01:02:37,229 --> 01:02:35,169
Melbourne skeptic and he just said hello

1553
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:37,239
wants to wave to us all here so the your

1554
01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:38,799
you're here with us now actually they're

1555
01:02:41,939 --> 01:02:40,689
recording the science on top podcast at

1556
01:02:44,459 --> 01:02:41,949
the same time as we're recording the

1557
01:02:46,979 --> 01:02:44,469
think tank it so it's all happening but

1558
01:02:48,539 --> 01:02:46,989
Joe thank you for coming along to think

1559
01:02:50,939 --> 01:02:48,549
please note great to see you doctor

1560
01:02:52,649 --> 01:02:50,949
eight years ever thank you I had fun and

1561
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:52,659
you had some noms to earlier which and

1562
01:02:56,789 --> 01:02:54,640
there's some lobsters lobsters over

1563
01:02:58,079 --> 01:02:56,799
there may not look I had a great time I

1564
01:03:00,299 --> 01:02:58,089
just wanna remind people that Thomas

1565
01:03:01,649 --> 01:03:00,309
Dolby recently visited Australia and was

1566
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:01,659
interviewed by Tim Ritchie and that's

1567
01:03:05,609 --> 01:03:03,130
available as a podcast find out what

1568
01:03:08,279 --> 01:03:05,619
Thomas Toby's been doing his song toad

1569
01:03:09,959 --> 01:03:08,289
liquors is a real winner and he modem

1570
01:03:11,489 --> 01:03:09,969
he'd made most of his money if you own a

1571
01:03:13,949 --> 01:03:11,499
nokia phone and it's got one of those

1572
01:03:17,579 --> 01:03:13,959
devices in their way you can make your

1573
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:17,589
own ringtone him he invented that so hit

1574
01:03:21,299 --> 01:03:20,169
every nokia phone sold during the 90s he

1575
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:21,309
would have got a little bit of a royalty

1576
01:03:24,539 --> 01:03:23,049
on because he was co-inventor of the

1577
01:03:26,159 --> 01:03:24,549
little synth inside there where he could

1578
01:03:28,229 --> 01:03:26,169
make your own was it polyphonic

1579
01:03:30,329 --> 01:03:28,239
ringtones or yeah yeah yeah whatever was

1580
01:03:31,679 --> 01:03:30,339
it made that ringtone every nakia phone

1581
01:03:32,879 --> 01:03:31,689
you got for a while so i'd say he

1582
01:03:34,609 --> 01:03:32,889
probably made more out that they ever

1583
01:03:37,169 --> 01:03:34,619
made out of music that's why he has a

1584
01:03:39,569 --> 01:03:37,179
lifeboat as a studio next to his house

1585
01:03:41,819 --> 01:03:39,579
on the coast of the coast of Wales where

1586
01:03:44,039 --> 01:03:41,829
he lives yet and that's why we have may

1587
01:03:48,389 --> 01:03:44,049
not come along think tank everybody here

1588
01:03:49,529 --> 01:03:48,399
in science but by god I can drink Iran's

1589
01:03:51,989 --> 01:03:49,539
the give thank you for coming alone

1590
01:03:54,089 --> 01:03:51,999
thanks very much sweeter and Stefan yeah

1591
01:03:55,859 --> 01:03:54,099
are you lets us be great to be here this

1592
01:03:57,809 --> 01:03:55,869
once in a blue moon I actually get

1593
01:03:59,909 --> 01:03:57,819
released and allowed to come to the

1594
01:04:01,739 --> 01:03:59,919
today actually not true at all blue

1595
01:04:03,389 --> 01:04:01,749
moons happen much more often there well

1596
01:04:05,639 --> 01:04:03,399
they have happened twice in the last two

1597
01:04:08,399 --> 01:04:05,649
months but this is about it until 2014

1598
01:04:10,139 --> 01:04:08,409
it's been fantastic thank you and until

1599
01:04:14,740 --> 01:04:10,149
our next think tank which I hope is not

1600
01:04:14,750 --> 01:04:48,070
nobody glasses all that

1601
01:04:55,780 --> 01:04:52,280
hey Kenny oh hi Tom I say this part yeah

1602
01:04:58,190 --> 01:04:55,790
yes great weather oh look a unicorn

1603
01:05:01,370 --> 01:04:58,200
unicorn there are no such things as

1604
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:01,380
unicorns silly yes there is no there

1605
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:03,570
isn't hey guys what are you arguing

1606
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:06,690
about tom thinks unicorns are real hey

1607
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:09,450
so are let's look us up in the skeptics

1608
01:05:14,300 --> 01:05:12,210
dictionary the what how can we do this

1609
01:05:15,980 --> 01:05:14,310
in this park there is the computer here

1610
01:05:18,050 --> 01:05:15,990
you guys probably don't know about the

1611
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:18,060
skeptics dictionary app available now

1612
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:20,970
for iPhone iPad and iPod touch in the

1613
01:05:26,300 --> 01:05:24,480
app store Wow cool the app lets you

1614
01:05:27,980 --> 01:05:26,310
access all of the great skeptics

1615
01:05:31,340 --> 01:05:27,990
dictionary articles when you're on the

1616
01:05:34,190 --> 01:05:31,350
go here let me look up unicorns not cool

1617
01:05:36,260 --> 01:05:34,200
Kenny prepare to be proven wrong it says

1618
01:05:40,010 --> 01:05:36,270
here the Unicorn is a creature from

1619
01:05:41,510 --> 01:05:40,020
fables aha actually I see now that

1620
01:05:44,300 --> 01:05:41,520
someone just dumped their ice cream cone

1621
01:05:55,740 --> 01:05:44,310
on that horse's head thanks skeptics

1622
01:06:01,000 --> 01:05:59,020
Richard I'm exhausted Oh Stefan what a

1623
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:01,010
think tank know what I think team up my

1624
01:06:04,839 --> 01:06:02,930
mom is expanding exploding and

1625
01:06:06,940 --> 01:06:04,849
contracting again Maynard's on the floor

1626
01:06:08,740 --> 01:06:06,950
dr. Rietz in Iran are fighting in the

1627
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:08,750
corner Joe's gone I don't even I can't

1628
01:06:12,329 --> 01:06:10,250
see us here she's going to look at the

1629
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:12,339
lobsters I think yeah but one thing that

1630
01:06:16,420 --> 01:06:14,450
dr. Rachel she mentioned something about

1631
01:06:18,700 --> 01:06:16,430
challenging the word it in a court case

1632
01:06:20,770 --> 01:06:18,710
about what the word it means that's

1633
01:06:23,140 --> 01:06:20,780
doing my head in every turn it from now

1634
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:23,150
on every time I hear the word it I'm

1635
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:25,010
trying to wonder what what the actual

1636
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:26,930
meaning of that word is it's it's it's

1637
01:06:33,130 --> 01:06:30,890
difficult it's hard it's it's a it's a

1638
01:06:35,290 --> 01:06:33,140
problem I'm bringing up but yeah look

1639
01:06:37,329 --> 01:06:35,300
great show great show and what were we

1640
01:06:41,859 --> 01:06:37,339
coming back next week with anything well

1641
01:06:43,420 --> 01:06:41,869
I'm off again yeah and a couple in fact

1642
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:43,430
tomorrow I'm on a plane heading for

1643
01:06:46,810 --> 01:06:44,720
Singapore I'll be here a couple of days

1644
01:06:49,030 --> 01:06:46,820
Oh then I'll be in Edinburgh for about a

1645
01:06:50,410 --> 01:06:49,040
week where i'll be talking to the local

1646
01:06:52,180 --> 01:06:50,420
skeptics mmm we're looking forward to

1647
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:52,190
that and then i'm heading to Manchester

1648
01:06:58,089 --> 01:06:55,250
for QED Oh Richard why did you come with

1649
01:07:01,809 --> 01:06:58,099
us on though you have the most enviable

1650
01:07:05,319 --> 01:07:01,819
job in the world Maynard's under the

1651
01:07:06,370 --> 01:07:05,329
table come back okay thank you yes well

1652
01:07:07,839 --> 01:07:06,380
I guess we'll be looking forward to

1653
01:07:11,130 --> 01:07:07,849
hearing what's the reports from all your

1654
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:11,140
journey and I hope so jet lag reports

1655
01:07:16,329 --> 01:07:14,000
but i'll be sending those in producing

1656
01:07:19,089 --> 01:07:16,339
the zone on the fly on the fly fly on

1657
01:07:21,579 --> 01:07:19,099
the old iPad well on the little netbook

1658
01:07:23,170 --> 01:07:21,589
oh really an excellent well I think we

1659
01:07:25,180 --> 01:07:23,180
should just let you get up get packing I

1660
01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:25,190
better go hasport run downstairs and

1661
01:07:29,500 --> 01:07:26,720
start packing my bags get some

1662
01:07:35,020 --> 01:07:29,510
vaccinations I will hello you know see

1663
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:37,060
you've been listening to the skeptic

1664
01:07:45,820 --> 01:07:42,050
zone visit our website at www skeptics